Personalized Attributes

[Dariel]

This has been touched upon in the 'hair' thread, and I thought it was deserving of its own thread. With the advent of StoryPoints, we've seen a solid crop of custom work on body parts -especially eyes- enter the game. Enough to build a preliminary opinion on, I'd think.

As has been said in the aforementioned thread, some of the attributes chosen seem a bit... unlucky, to say the least. While I'm sure that the worst cases are being sifted out (I wasn't allowed that bulging groin I asked for after all), there still seems to be the odd suggestion making it through that probably would be better left out of the game.

Specifically, I'm thinking of attributes that imply a reaction or very subjective or vague quality. I'll try to list what I mean in a general way, to take the wind out of the whiner's sails, but if anybody feels hurt or attacked, consider yourself collateral damage.

• Emotions. Mournful eyes, a frowning mouth or gentle hands. While there is a cruel mouth in character creation, I never quite understood how that would look to begin with. The same goes for all other implied emotion. Is said character's face/other expressive body part locked in a perpetual state of expressing that emotion? Sounds like a really bad cramp, or nerve damage to me. Seriously, though, I doubt anybody constantly expresses or radiates the same overall emotional quality and do find this rather unfitting.
  
  I'd suggest emotions not be allowed to be expressed through attributes, as emotion is far better conveyed through appropriate emotes. Both for the sake of the setting and the player. As soon as you happily flick your mournful eyes at someone, you'll see what I mean.
  
• Suggestions. Entrancing eyes, a promising mouth or lethal hands. Xios already spoke of these in the other thread and reminded us that we can always 'deny consent' to follow through on these suggestions. They're still there, though, and they annoy me to be blunt. A character with a promising mouth seems to be begging to be kissed, which makes the character seem rather pathetic to me.
  
  Again, my suggestion to not use these is meant both for the player's sake as well as the greater good. As I noted above, a player with an overly suggestive attribute seems to rather attract other players' contempt than interest.
  
• Abstract Concepts. Polite eyes, a chaste mouth, just hands. All of these qualities are very subjective (and the examples I pick really bad, I'll admit, but I hope everyone understands what I mean) and therefore really can't be easily defined. One might see polite eyes as eyes that always meet another's eyes, to convey openness while another might see them as perpetually lowered eyes that avoid everyone's gaze.
  
  While hard to define, this is easy to explain. One word sometimes isn't enough to convey something properly, especially when dealing with abstract concepts, and it will maybe breed more confusion than it will faciliate personalization in the long run -- People constantly meeting your polite eyes while you imagine them as being evasively turned towards the ground doesn't seem like fun.

All of these wobbly cases are currently in-game, and will probably remain there for better or worse. I might certainly have overlooked more, but those are the ones I've seen and taken exception to.

Personally, I'm far more fond of attributes that convey a clear impression that may be open to interpretation within a small, defined area and leave me at leisure to have my character appreciate, ignore or dislike them.

To mention two of the examples I really like:

porcellain skin -- Suggests the qualities of that material. White (in as far as skin can be stark white of course), smooth and delicate. Everyone is free to decide they like tanned or freckled skin better, or that a real woman's skin is riddled with nicks and little scars from duels fought.

icy blue eyes -- Of course I'm reading this as eyes that are of an icy blue (much like the dye Frost maybe?), not appearing icy and blue in colour. Again, the imagery seems clear. A light, clear and possibly radiant blue. Evoking purity, resilience and lack of attachment, though not in a forcing manner. Again, the list of interpretations is limited and everyone is free to freely apply their character's impression to the attribute.


There... if anybody wants to discuss, agree or whine, you're all invited, just do me a favour and read the damn post first, don't rant away without understanding what I'm actually saying.


Have a nice day.

[Gabs]

Damn it Uli, once again you managed to express my thoughts, only in better words than what I ever could write.

I don't care if you like it or not, but I'm worshipping your intellect.

[Zeakk]

Suggestions. Entrancing eyes, a promising mouth or lethal hands. Xios already spoke of these in the other thread and reminded us that we can always 'deny consent' to follow through on these suggestions. They're still there, though, and they annoy me to be blunt. A character with a promising mouth seems to be begging to be kissed, which makes the character seem rather pathetic to me.

Kisses are promises, you know. *eyeshift*

At any rate, while you're on to something with the concept of some of the discriptions attempting to force emotion on you, like sexy, and so forth, basically every discription is opinion. What if I don't think someone's lips are full, even though others do? What if I don't think your hands are large at all, because mine are large too? What if I don't think you're towering, maybe just a little taller than most?

I don't see why someone couldn't have entrancing eyes, which have no effect on you. Still doesn't mean they can't be entrancing. I've gotten in rather silly fights with a young lady over whether or not here eyes were blue or green, she thinks they're green, still, yet, I say they're blue. I would have known, right? I'm the one looking into them? No, of course not, she thinks they're green for some reason. Once tried to get someone to mediate the on going arguement, to which his response was "They're bluish green, or greenish blue... Hmm."

Someone could have intelligent eyes, but that doesn't mean they're smart, that could just mean there's a glimmer of intelligence behind their eyes.

I hate to sound post-modernist on this one, but in this case there's a lot of opinion. Opinions can very a lot, so saying that someone can't have "entrancing eyes" Is like saying that that person's not entitled to their opinion, and that only you are since you should have a right to decide whether or not they're entrancing. If someone turns their entrancing eyes to you, it's not an attempt to force the fact that they are entrancing on you, it's a prompt to lead you to the fact that they could be entrancing. Just like because someone's hulking and towering doesn't mean you have to think they're big and tall, it's just a prompt to make you consider the fact that they could be. Although, in this castle it's really more of an average frame now adays =-)


-Zeakk

[Hannah]

While I can think of a few instances that a chaste mouth might not be so bad (Ravelyn) Uli makes a great point. You should try and use a trait that, for the most part, lacks emotion.

Toss your character in the bestand worst situation you can think of and see if they both work.

• Hannah licks her lustful lips, "Yes, I want your sword!"
  or
• Hannah bloodily wipes her lustful lips, "I'm sorry My Lord, I did not mean to imply anything lewd.'

You see.. the last one just doesn't add anything to the emote. Even simple words like smiling don't do much.. we have a parser to take care of emotes like that. In my opinion if you can't make you're characters *typical* mood apperant by RP, you have no business trying to add features to show a constant mood, not even mentioning the whole part that it's very unlikely that any character will have a constant mood of any sort, be it happy or sad.

I know a lot of you will not like what Uli has to say, just because it's a post made by him, and he's usually a crab-ass about his thoughts on subjects, but this is an instance were not too many people can argue and have solid ground to stand on.

[John]

Emotions. Mournful eyes, a frowning mouth or gentle hands. While there is a cruel mouth in character creation, I never quite understood how that would look to begin with. The same goes for all other implied emotion. Is said character's face/other expressive body part locked in a perpetual state of expressing that emotion? Sounds like a really bad cramp, or nerve damage to me. Seriously, though, I doubt anybody constantly expresses or radiates the same overall emotional quality and do find this rather unfitting.

Just a note about cruel mouth. I suspect the reason that its included is becouse there is a common comment/look in a lot of the old west movies that makes someone in the movie always say "So and so has a cruel mouth" Its mostly a look where the lips are thin, and often a little abused (little scar leftovers) and the teath are a little yellow, and a little odd kilter. So I think its less intended to make an emotional point, and more that a certion look has gotten this as a name after some years. But thats just my guess.

[Priam]

Actually, "cruel mouth" instantly reminds me of A. C. Doyle's books. Hell, there probably isn't a criminal in all the Sherlock Holmes stories I've read who isn't described as having a cruel mouth - apparently a good judge of people could tell they're rotten just by looking at their face! Go anthropology!

As a sidenote, I do agree with Uli's points.

[^Jessifur^]

Good timing for this thread.

I was just discussing this, though passingly, in the courtyard with a couple players (Neerie and Samia?).

The idea came to my mind that a character could have an "up-turned (or 'upturned')"-nose. Samia suggested that it was really more of a colloquialism than a physical attribute, with which I do agree to an extent, save that a "retrousse" nose would be the exact same thing only a bit more appropriate and exact. "Upturned" would have been very subjective, whereas -- as a word -- retrousse is actually used in describing a nose that 'turns up' at the end.

As an aside, I would personally pay for Britta to be coded with an "upturned" nose. I would not pay for her to have a "retrousse" nose, though, because it more implies a "pug"-like nose. "Upturned", rather, would imply a certain snobbiness that is signature to Britta's character.

The case isn't always black and white. Wouldn't it differ from character to character whether or not some attributes are inappropriate? Some are appropriate, some are inappropriate, and some are inert. I just gave Aislinn "supple" lips, and that's pretty inert either way -- it's not something you can argue. And supple is pliant and soft to the touch; a good "little detail" to customize if you want.

In my opinion if you can't make you're characters *typical* mood apperant by RP, you have no business trying to add features to show a constant mood, not even mentioning the whole part that it's very unlikely that any character will have a constant mood of any sort, be it happy or sad.

Amen. That is similar to curtseying beautifully or perfectly, I think. And the smile emote? It is definitive and abstract all at once. I hated this. So I found something completely different for my character -- something I didn't see happening very often with parser use:

• Aislinn smilingly curls her lips.

It reminds me of that one part in How the Grinch Stole Christmas where the camera is focussed on the Grinch's face and when he smiles, the ends of his mouth curl up into curlicues. Granted the emote isn't meant so comically, but you get the picture: it's obviously a smile, but its formation makes it look like something other than just an ordinary smile.

Parser use and actual ROLE-PLAYING can get your character's emotions across just as well as specially-coded body parts. Going back to Britta's nose: everyone knows she's about the biggest snot/snob in the Castle. Giving her a physically "upturned" nose would only add a cheeky detail to an already completed picture. I think a player should first role-play their character according to the way they want that character to be viewed, and then personalise with storypoints. It wouldn't have been justified for Britta's nose to be coded in the first few months of her creation, as no one knew what she was or what she was going to be.

Hazelline's player has often said to me that she wishes she hadn't given her character the eyes she has now. This I think is proof of that what you do one day with your storypoints isn't what you'll always want for your character. And … I don't think Hazel's player will disagree. She may have wanted something then for Hazel, and now she may think her character has changed to the point where the eyes aren’t exactly appropriate. Her plans for her character may be different now compared to what they were when she had those brown eyes coded. -- Be careful, because the storypoint changes you make to your character (though not necessarily permanent, especially if you have the storypoints to revert the attribute customisation) will make a certain impression and PHYSICALLY DEFINE your character in a way you may or may not like six months later.

It’s all subjective, no matter how you look at it, I think.

Now just watch. Someone gets "objective" pale blue eyes.

- Me.

[Hannah]

Hmm, I do wonder how Hannah would look with 'cow eyes' though.

[Zeakk]

Not as cute as she would if she had doe eyes.

Sides, people might think you were carrying cow eyes around.
Hannah rubs her brown cow eyes.
>
l hannah's cow eyes
A pair of brown cow eyes
>
examine her cow eyes
You begin to examine Hanna's cow eyes
>
A pair of brown cow eyes
//And finally//
l hannah
//seeing that you're not carrying any cow eyes//
ooc hannah "Oh my Gosh! You've got cow eyes!"
OOC -- you say to Hannah, "Oh my Gosh! You've got cow eyes!"

-Zeakk

[Hannah]

LOL!

Thats it, Hannah's gonna wear black and white leather from now on!

[SPXios]

To give some idea to everyone:

Eyes are set up like, he has <eyeshape> <eyecolor> eyes.

But we have some NPC characters who violate Dariel's comments above. I'd tend to agree the first word should only be a referance to physical shape. The precidence has been set in the past with characters who existed before I started playing.

Often I will speak to some people about their requests. This is to avoid 'smiling lips' or 'depressed eyes'. Other alternatives can often be found which read better.

[Hannah]

So it would be totally possible for me to have big brown eyes then?

[Briseis]

I paid to have Briseis form changed from bony to boyish. She's short, slender, virtually flat and has narrow hips. I'd been roleplaying her as boyish from the start, though once she joined the Watch, it became more ... I can't think of the word - obvious, or stronger-roleplayed. Because of the martial work she does and the fact she's never ever in a dress.

However, in a text based game, we're really limited in some ways by he and shes. I once saw this woman on the bus who had a beard that could put my uncle to shame (I later had her in one of my classes and became friends - she's got a genetic issue that causes the hairiness). But my first impression was "WOAH! God, she looks like a man!" I had to look twice to make sure she was. And while Briseis doesn't have a beard (thank ghu!), she's definately very boyish looking.

But people don't see that. They see SHE, HER, sera, etc. etc. So when I was thinking of spending my points, I went for boyish because while I roleplay it (Of course, I think well), I think the attribute change REALLY helps. Now I don't have to page people who're treating her like some aphrodite telling them she looks like a page boy.

On the side note, since the boyish change, the whole aphrodite thing has completely died off

//edit

I forgot part of what I intended to post:

I am somewhat sensitive about the change I had made. I believe that I'm not going too far in saying she's boyish, but at the same time, I'm really worried that I might be pushing people or forcing them to view Bri a certain way that I'm not doing through roleplay.

I know it's not as bad as smiling lips - Yeah, I have smiling lips while I'm screaming in agony because I've been stabbities several times - but at the same time, you put Bri in a dress and she wants to feel womanly, she has that boyish there still. So I don't know.

I wouldn't want to undo in any means. I LOVE it. But I'm oddly sensitive about it.

Whatcha think - was boyish an ok change? Why or why not?

[Ageelia]

Originally posted by Hannah
So it would be totally possible for me to have big brown eyes then?

One of the existing possiblilties on character generation is 'large dark brown eyes', if that gives you any idea of what's easily doable.

[Dariel]

While it obviously wasn't the main thrust of this thread... well, I can't see anything wrong with boyish. It does imply a female person of a boyish built. Not possessed of the typical female curvature. It's defined, neutral, non-suggestive. The whole nine yards.

Of course, she's screwed once she puts on a dress because with a body like that, she'll have a hard time filling it... might even be mistaken for a drag-queen... but that's part of the fun, no?

Every opportunity also is a problem.


Have a nice day.