The Book of the East Wind

[murf]

(Hmmm... Still getting the hang of these message boards. My apologies if this is threaded improperly.)

Jeff,

I just read your article on currency, and I'm curious how you plan to handle "leveling", specifically, what steps you plan to take in order to avoid seeing everyone jump on the "leveling treadmill". I do like the notion of player points, but the desirability of such a mechanism implies a value to earning higher levels that would promote the level rat race. (Of course, you might not mind this too much. After all, the plot of many martial arts flicks is: master gets killed, master’s apprentice gets humiliated attempting to avenge master, apprentice finds a new master and trains rigorously, apprentice kicks much hiney and earns the title of master.)

Brian

[JeffC]

Originally posted by murf:
I'm curious how you plan to handle "leveling", specifically, what steps you plan to take in order to avoid seeing everyone jump on the "leveling treadmill".

Well, the hope is to achieve a balance.

I don't intend to provide a physical measure of a skill, meaning any kind of skill meter that shows levels or a running tally of skill points. I also don't intend to have 'levels' as they are usually defined. Skill level will be a measure of two things - your actually ability to do a thing, which increases gradually and constantly, not in leaps and bounds when thresholds are met, and subjectively. A subjective measure of skill depends on the skill level of those around you. For example, you might be a master of Pa Kua in your little village, and think of yourself as a master because no one in the village can beat you up. But compared to the master at the Lohan temple down the river, your skills are about on a level with some of his better students. So mastership, or the title of master, largely depends on how those around you view your skills. If you are the only guy around who can make a sword, more than likely you will be considered a sword master, even if your skills are not that extraordinary. By combining these two methods, I hope that traditional views of levelling will become obsolete.

However, the game will emphasize improving your skills and attributes. Some form of leveling treadmill is bound to occur any time you can have skills and improve them, even in someplace like Castle Marrach which doesn't emphasize combat. The key to balance, I hope, is that combat prowess won't be the only path to success and fun. It will remain in many ways a social game, with most things occuring within the city of Kangdao at first. If flying sword kicks isn't your thing, and you don't want to spend your time challenging people to fights, you don't have to. The emperor isn't the best fighter in the land, the high priest of the temple may simply be a wise and respected woman without any 'real' power to do things like call down pillars of flame upon her enemies. There are social repurcussions for your actions, and being able to push people around may not be the best or even fastest way to rise to the top of the social ladder. If you befriend the emperor's son, you might suddenly rise from peasant to court advisor without any parallel rise is skill level, something that might take a lifetime for someone pursuing the martial or magical path to power and imperial influence. Your friends will be just as important as your fists, and an enemy who you could slaughter blindfolded with both hands tied behind your back might be influential enough to order your death at the snap of a finger.

So rather than try to limit the abuse of the powergamers, I have chosen to counterbalance them by allowing social powergaming. I would prefer no powergaming at all. But I wasn't born that lucky.

[Monkey]

If Qigung won't have a way to know just how many skill points a character has without comparison to other characters, will this apply to items as well?

In the Builder's forum, we talked about how you didn't want categories of craftsmanship for your items (for example: cheap, good, and wonderful). But without a way to compare crafted items to one another, how will players know if they are smithing better weapons than the guy or gal down the block?

If it was possible to compare one item to another, a character might be able to determine if a woven rug was better, the same as, or worse than another woven rug. When you get a wide range of numbers, however--like Qigung will if there is no maximum capacity--then certain items will appear better or worse than others even when they are essentially equal unless you include tolerances.

A knitted cap with a value of 40,756 is probably just as effective at keeping a character's head warm as one with a value of 40,757, even though the latter is technically better. The two would probably be treated as the same quality by most folks.

Maybe this is stuff you've already thought of.

[murf]

Originally posted by Monkey:
[b]A knitted cap with a value of 40,756 is probably just as effective at keeping a character's head warm as one with a value of 40,757, even though the latter is technically better. The two would probably be treated as the same quality by most folks.[b]

To be honest, I'm not sure there's much point in discriminating between the two caps. If there's no noticeable difference between the quality of the two products, then there's little point in splitting the hair between them. I certainly wouldn't pay any more for one or the other, all other considerations being equal. Or am I misunderstanding your question?

Brian

[JeffC]

Originally posted by Monkey:
How will players know if they are smithing better weapons than the guy or gal down the block?

I don't want to totally eliminate quality descriptions. The only thing is, quality descriptions will remain subjective. The sword you make to the best of your ability might seem of perfect craftsmanship, until the first time you swing a piece of Toledo steel. Naturally, there will have to be some thresholds at which you say, this is crap, this is average, and this is great. The thing to remember is that until you actually experience a sword of truly great craftsmanship, your ability to appraise a great sword is limited, and you can be fooled with a fake.

I am still working on the details of how to implement this. I'm not sure yet of the system's capabilities. I know how I want to do it. I don't know yet if it is possible.

[Monkey]

To be honest, I'm not sure there's much point in discriminating between the two caps.

That's exactly my point. There is no noticeable difference, and you shouldn't pay more for one than the other.

A tolerance (something I probably should have gone into more detail about), is a range where numbers that fall within that range are considered essentially equal. With a tolerance of plus or minus three, a towel with a drying power of 20 is essentially equal to a towel with a drying power of 18 or one with a 23. The 18 and 23, however, are significantly different from each other, and while essentially the same as the first towel, are different enough from each other to discern.

Tolerances could be based on how good of an appraising skill you have, or based on your own relevant skill. A really good cobbler would have a more critical eye, and more easily spot the difference between two nearly identical shoes than a cobbler who was just learning the trade. People who can't cobble at all would have the widest tolerances of comparison, and one shoe looks as good as most others.

Of course, I finished writting this just as Jeff posted his answer http://www.skotos.net/ubb/smile.gif

[JeffC]

Gee, there hasn't been a new article from the Book of the East Wind for quite a while. I wonder what's going on.

Never fear, gentle pilgrims, the wisdom of the sages shall soon return. The honorable translator has been attempting to complete a study of the journey of a group of gnomes in a mythical land named Krynn, but this was in turn interrupted by the birth of an imperial son. The honorable translator will soon resume his normal course of duties.

[JesteR]

Where can i get (or play) these kung-fu games you have all been talking about???

[Atama]

Jester, the game is a work in progress. We do not have any release date planned as of yet, but I assure you, it will come. And it will rule when it comes out!

[JesteR]

But some of you guys are talking about it as if you player it yesterday!

[JesteR]

'But some of you guys are talking about it as if you PLAYED it yesterday!' - I mean...

[JesteR]

This has nothing to do with kung-fu movies but these talking games are crap.I want one where you accually walk around and fight stuff, not these pieces-of-**** where you write in what u want to do!!!

[Atama]

http://www.capcom.com/xpml/game.xpml?gameid=600038

There you go buddy, enjoy.