Player Killing and Permadeath.

[Mackrels]

A small but fanatical group believe that without the possiblity of Player Killing and the result of that PK being permadeath that there can be no real Role Playing.

Strictly speaking that is not true.

Right now, every character in TEC is essentially a Greek God.

The various Gods represent different things, and some Gods are higher up in the Divine Scheme of things, but Gods we are, from the newest newbie to the most seasoned veteran.

The Gods fight and bicker, scheme and plot, wreak havoc upon the mortals (NPCs, PNPCs, and purchased NPCs like dogs/guards etc.), and ocassionally deal injuries to one another.

But the fact remains they just can't kill each other.

The Gods can allow themselves to fade away, if they wish it upon themselves, and there is an arcane, somewhat unreliable, ritual to bring a God to his unwilling end (Death decided by Trial).

But for the most part the Gods live on, and the longer they live the more their pettiness grows, and with pettiness, frustration. And out of frustration, spite. And from spite are born the griefers.

The previously suggested GM 'solution' of making a PK system with luckable death, does nothing to address the 'God' problem.
Since it's not really killing the only thing it does is allow you to take another 250 role points from someone on top of whatever the items they were carrying cost them. It will only add another lever for griefers and compound the frustrations of most of the player base.

Admittedly to some people the 'God' problem is not a problem at all, personally I'm tired of playing the role of an impotent deity, I want to play a mortal, and a mortal among mortals, not a mortal among Gods.

The solution is PK with permadeath.

Those two things, both of them, equal importance.

[Antonisus]

I support the idea of permadeath. Make pk's luckable and you basically have anothe Grendels revenge. It won't solve much, most people will still go around acting like they do now because they know they have a few hundred RPs to blow so they can afford to die a few times on top of the luck point everyone receives with a new character.

In certain cases, of say an accidental killing or a killing for poor or OOC reasons, I think the GMs should allow players to come back using a luck point but in attacks that are meant to kill a person permenantly it should not be allowed. Thats my view.

[blister]

Originally posted by Mackrels
A small but fanatical group believe that without the possiblity of Player Killing and the result of that PK being permadeath that there can be no real Role Playing.

People who believe otherwise is why the game has become a joke where you can be killed, lose some exp, and run right back to kill whatever just killed you. There's good roleplay in -staying- dead.

Permadeath is the end of Auto-5's and Mob Creep as well. Permadeath solves many, many, many problems, and for those who actually have a few wits about 'em, creates very few. As they say on Dartmud... You will die, those who are not clever will die much sooner.

That God/Mortal view is a load of crap as well. No RP'er looks at NPC's any different than another player. "Those who matter, and those who do not" doesn't exist in the world we know, nor would it exist in the real world a character is part of.

The abolishment of PK's without approval was a travesty to the roleplaying community there because no longer was a threat of death taken seriously. Why? The ooc knowledge that they really wouldn't do shit. It just got a lot worse. Like RP was a store, PK Requests have been closed down from what I've heard. Now you can only thug back.

[Catuluscaesar]

I agree entirely. If characters cannot be killed, then you eliminate any accountability for peoples' actions. Hence, the stupid characters in the gameworld, hence the growing idea that you can do whatever you want without anyone responding. I hold with those that beat the hell out of annoying characters, only because pkill isn't an option. Several of these characters should be wiped out for a number of reasons. Patricians can't seek the death of those that besmirched their names. Characters can't eliminate those who rp would dictate must attempt to be killed.

Give us back our pkill! We really do need it!

[Drimacus]

Originally posted by Catuluscaesar
I agree entirely. If characters cannot be killed, then you eliminate any accountability for peoples' actions. Hence, the stupid characters in the gameworld, hence the growing idea that you can do whatever you want without anyone responding. I hold with those that beat the hell out of annoying characters, only because pkill isn't an option. Several of these characters should be wiped out for a number of reasons. Patricians can't seek the death of those that besmirched their names. Characters can't eliminate those who rp would dictate must attempt to be killed.

Give us back our pkill! We really do need it!

PKill ain't really good. You'd see Calgar running around town and killing everyone. Adroytus would rebel against the constables and kill all of them and killing the whole nation of Iridine.

With all the powertrainers, PKilling is not an option. Powertraining should be taken care of before PKilling.

[Boypet]

PK only by request to a GM, and they approve. Just like long time ago. But if its PK kill everyone then something like what Drimicus said would happen.

[Jove]

Originally posted by Drimacus
PKill ain't really good. You'd see Calgar running around town and killing everyone. Adroytus would rebel against the constables and kill all of them and killing the whole nation of Iridine.

With all the powertrainers, PKilling is not an option. Powertraining should be taken care of before PKilling.

If I were Calgar or Adroytus I'd be really insulted by this. You're saying they a) Can't roleplay, and b) Have no investment in the world besides their weapon and ranks in it.

[Jolee]

"There's good roleplay in -staying- dead."

That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. For whom is it good roleplay?

You attempt to look at your ashes.

You can't do that while you're dead.

You attempt to curse your killer.

You can't do that while your dead.



Get my point? I don't see the point of yet another poll, either. Antonisus had some pretty good solutions in the last poll set up for the purpose of discussing PKs.

[TheRealAndrew2]

Originally posted by Jove
If I were Calgar or Adroytus I'd be really insulted by this. You're saying they a) Can't roleplay, and b) Have no investment in the world besides their weapon and ranks in it.

Where's this wrong again?

[Ravan]

Although I like the idea of pk with gm approval....the fact of the matter is, the GMs may, or may not be biast. We don't know. They may hate me with a passion, and adore my enimy...or vice versa. Then again, they could only judge on your character's IC reasoning for wanting to kill the particular person.

Here is an idea.

Basic accounts get to kill one person a month. Premium gets to kill 2. This is permenent.

This would in a way eliminate the possability of powertrainers killing everyhting that moves.

What about non-coms you ask? Fair game. They can hire guards just as well as the next person. What if they are poor, you ask? Then maybe you shouldn't go around pissing people off....

Seriously. I would be a whole lot happier if I could kill at least 1 or 2 idjits a month. Thats all I ask....

*sniffles*

[blister]

Originally posted by Drimacus
PKill ain't really good. You'd see Calgar running around town and killing everyone. Adroytus would rebel against the constables and kill all of them and killing the whole nation of Iridine.

With all the powertrainers, PKilling is not an option. Powertraining should be taken care of before PKilling.

We've all seen how a 5 week newb can take down just about anyone if they train the right things. Some things are unblockable like throws. Throwers in a group will kill anyone. The people with mad melee skills know this.

Same as with (probably the most famed pk-free mud I've been) Dartmud. You don't have rampage freak-killing at the upper levels for good reason. Why? Because some extremely dextrous mohnkee will take your head off with a throwing knife in a one hit head shot kill, newbie or not.

What does happen, is just what happens in real life. There are no loners. Loners die quickly. Non-com specialists are highly valued, and fighters live to protect those who can supply them with needed things.

True there's asses just like anywhere there, and the occasional pkiller moron that runs around, but guess what? Holding differention between NPC's and PC's, in other words, having a Preference for killing PC's is the utilization of OOC information. Your character cannot distinguish between the life contained in a sailor npc, or that of even Adroytus. Other than the fact that Adro would kick your ass, and a sailor may not.

People honing in on just PC's happen to get zotted, or 'dealt with', by unseen forces. Maybe even just a mishap, or they prove unsuccessful in killing someone before the victim gets away and alerts the town. The town, which then, has an all-out manhunt and slaughter.

Of course there it isn't an honor system there, if you attack someone you're forced to stay in-game for a period of time, and tracking methods are available which aren't here. Blame the system.

Works pretty damn well though. Problem with it working here, is that this system wasn't setup for mechanical roleplay of the PvP kind. It's a tree hugging hippie mechanics system that's patched together. Something that should have been thought about before they removed the open PK system in the first place. A fact that's normally forgotten, it used to be that way already.. just poorly done. It's easy to kill, but it's far easier to just run and hide forever. Don't get me wrong, patching back on the old PK system IS NOT the solution. Done correctly, there would be much more code tossed into the mix, but it should have been done that way the first time if any player versus player action resulting in IC death was allowed, like thieving for example.

Before someone says it, yes, 'stuff' is worth killing over. If it wasn't, the thief should have thought twice about taking it, or earned it him/herself. Theft was common practice met with a penance of death in the arena, or by the hands of authorities. The law system now is American liberalist, not Roman.

[blister]

Originally posted by Drimacus
Powertraining should be taken care of before PKilling.

Permadeath/Open-PK handles that problem very well.

[blister]

Originally posted by Jolee
[BThat makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. For whom is it good roleplay?[/b]

For any and everyone who thought it was a crock of shit when certain people were ressurected from the dead, or any death.

It's good for the perceptive 'value of life' encompassing the entire playerbase.

It's even better for revenge. It gives you a real reason to cry, not to sit around and go 'oh wait, some gm will just ressurect him in a month'. When someone dies, emotion will again be felt in ties to that death. Because why? Because that character is in fact dead. No second chances, no second luck on life.

With people training on rats, I don't really see how it's a bad thing. Not like you'll die hitting rats on the head. If you do.. um.. stay on the dummy next time.

As with RL, as with your characters RL, your next breath is not guaranteed if you do stupid shit.

Can't be selfish about it either. -Your- rp with that character may have ended, in their death. However you may have opened up to an entire cities rp with your dead character, and surrounding situations. It's not all about everyone getting to rp their lives away with their unhealthy attachment to one name and genre.

[Mast3rMind]

I'm all for enabling PK with GM approval.

PK in general would be nice. But the playerbase in general, unfortunately, is neither mature nor intelligent enough to handle it responsibly. Yes, I know there are damned good roleplayers out there who would definitely be responsible with it. But for every responsible player there are twelve more who would just use it to be pains in the ass and to try and show everyone how big their penises are (though why people feel the need to try through a text only game is beyond me; but that's a matter for another thread entirely).

Another thing: I think if suddenly PKs were allowed with GM approval once more and the threat of mortality were suddenly thrown in the faces of everyone, peoples' first reaction would be to get to smacking the dummy/gull/fluvitur/rat/osecar/pod bettle as much as possible, to try and insulate themselves from any threat of immediate death. I don't think with the current climate of the playerbase that PK would put an end to powertraining. I think we'd see a massive spike of it.

[blister]

heeheehee.. good quote, forget which dev board I read it on...

"My character is a direct extension of my penis"