Armor discussion

[SHAzrael]

Hi guys,

Got a question for you. This is purely preference, no right or wrong answers.

Would you prefer to have "one object" for your armor, such as "Azrael is wearing a suit of polished steel armor" or would you prefer multiple individual items, such as "Azrael is wearing a pair of polished steel greaves, a pair of polished steel kneeplates, a polished steel breastplate, a polished steel helmet" and so on?

The obvious pros & cons are:
- One item is cleaner and easier to understand when you look at another PC. It's also easier to clearly know what benefits you get for each type of armor (and gives staff options for things like mastercraft armor)

- Multiple items allow you to customize your outfit with more detail, and only wear specific types of armor if you choose. Someone might have some really significant reason why they want to wear greaves but no other armor. (Does that actually happen?) - it also allows you to "collect" more items. It gives staff more opportunity to "trickle feed" special armor into the game (e.g. we can give out some soulsteel bracers, without having to give out an entire set of soulsteel armor)

I would imagine that even if we do the "one item for armor" option, we would still have different "types" of armor, e.g. "a suit of leather armor", "a suit of full plate mail", "a suit of light chainmail" etc. so there would still be options.

[SHAzrael]

Oh, and if you're a blacksmith, don't stress about this poll. We'll make sure that armor is valuable to the players, whether they're buying one item or multiple items.

In fact, nobody should stress. There are no plans to make any changes in the immediate future, this is just to get a general idea of how players feel about the topic.

[CaptainUnaMoon]

I vote #2 - Give me individual items of Armour.

This is because I want to be able to wear different sets of armour according to my character's preferences, i.e. Sunta is a lightweight, but she does wear bracers and a cuirass. Then there are 'ceremonial' pieces that you mentioned, so someone doesn't have to gift a whole suit but small pieces at a time.

I don't like that it spams a person's description, though. I would like to see a way of combining armour to make it simpler to read and, if someone wanted to, they could look at the armor specifically and see what was worn. So it would probably read much like #1.

I don't know that that would be very easy to code. It seems like it would be very complicated combining, storing and then taking it apart.

Sorry if it's not a very clear answer.

[SHAzrael]

Originally Posted by CaptainUnaMoon

I vote #2 - Give me individual items of Armour.

This is because I want to be able to wear different sets of armour according to my character's preferences, i.e. Sunta is a lightweight, but she does wear bracers and a cuirass. Then there are 'ceremonial' pieces that you mentioned, so someone doesn't have to gift a whole suit but small pieces at a time.

I don't like that it spams a person's description, though. I would like to see a way of combining armour to make it simpler to read and, if someone wanted to, they could look at the armor specifically and see what was worn. So it would probably read much like #1.

I don't know that that would be very easy to code. It seems like it would be very complicated combining, storing and then taking it apart.

Sorry if it's not a very clear answer.

Perfectly clear answer.
So you'd prefer individual pieces of items for gifts and for defining the character, but a single piece of armor for the description.

What if we had single pieces of armor for the "combat system" but ALSO individual pieces of armor that work like "normal" clothing, but don't give bonuses. That way you'd wear the appropriate armor for your character, and put in the appropriate accents.

So with your example, we might see:
Sunta is wearing black leggings, a pink tunic, leather armor, a pair of silver bracers and a black steel cuirass.

Someone else who isn't specifically trying to show individual pieces of armor might just wear the one piece, and show as:
Azrael is wearing a pair of pants, black boots, a white shirt and a suit of heavy chainmail.

With this setup, you'd still have to gift a whole suit if you want it to be effective in combat (e.g. join a military guild and they'll need to give you an entire set of armor) - but is that essentially what's happening most of the time now anyway? Just with more items to juggle?

[SHAzrael]

Oh, it's also worth noting that - if people want, we can still have a large range of "sets of armor" descriptions. So we could have leather armor described as a leather skirt and hardened breastplate (like the Roman uniforms) or described as loops of leather and a strapped on leather jacket-like thing (like D&D rogues might wear?) and so on. Plus custom descriptions, of course.

So the discussion is intended less for customizing the look of the armor, and more about whether you want to display (and interact) with the individual pieces. Do you need to be able to target your greaves as a different object to your breastplate, rather than as a detail on the same object?

[CaptainUnaMoon]

Originally Posted by SHAzrael

So the discussion is intended less for customizing the look of the armor, and more about whether you want to display (and interact) with the individual pieces. Do you need to be able to target your greaves as a different object to your breastplate, rather than as a detail on the same object?

I'd like to be able to target individual pieces, but I don't mind whether or not it's a detail on the same object as long as the object was customizable to include whatever armor pieces I chose my character to wear.

But if someone got a 'suit of armor' that's customizable would it be able to be changed to include new additions or reductions to the suit of armor?

[SHAzrael]

Originally Posted by CaptainUnaMoon

But if someone got a 'suit of armor' that's customizable would it be able to be changed to include new additions or reductions to the suit of armor?

That would depend on how staff coded it - but yes, I imagine it would.

Like how we can customize "a sword" to have different hilts, different blades etc. the armorsmiths should be able to customize "a suit of armor"

There will probably be sensible restrictions to that, of course. You wouldn't be able to customize a suit of full plate mail to be nothing more than a set of bracers.

And it would need to go to a blacksmith or armorsmith to get these customizations made.

But in general, yes, I expect armorsmiths to be able to customize pretty heavily.

[Harabec]

I think the only really concern is the spam of the look. Having individual pieces is best for both customization and armor values. Sure having a full set of armor is gonna be better for combat but at the same time if the individual pieces are for look only and give no bonus who is going to wear them without the full armor set? Never know when someone might jump you in an alleyway.

Individual is more flavorful for the game, gives specific bonuses (or detriments) for each piece worn and gives the smiths MUCH more to do as far as working their goods.

If you wanted, you could find a way to code a simple look into showing: Gus is wearing various pieces of armor

That would work if say he were wearing three or more pieces and they combined in a look but an examine would show all of it or if someone were to type: look at Gus' armor; it would then list the types of armor that are on his person (of course, if the armor is covered it wouldn't show in the look.) Complicated coding and likely not necessary but the individual pieces is the best way to go IMO. I assume armor works as clothing still in that certain pieces will completely cover other items.

[SHAzrael]

Originally Posted by Harabec

I think the only really concern is the spam of the look.

Not really. That's the only concern that I've been talking about, but from a coding standpoint, there are other concerns.

For example, in the tabletop game, you can wear two sets of armor at once (say, padding and platemail together. Or leather + chainmail. Or even chainmail + a robe (robes give bonuses to wizards when they cast spells)) - it is a LOT easier to manage that in code if each set of armor is just one item - imagine trying to figure out which sets of armor PCs are wearing, and letting them layer them, and communicating to the player what they are still able to wear, with all the different pieces.

Also, calculating the armor bonuses is a lot easier. Because of the way the dice system works, having a very small dice roll is often pointless. If you can wear bracers and nothing else, I'd like those bracers to help in combat. But if they only give, say, an armor rating of 2, then it's essentially pointless. Just for show. However, there's a HUGE difference between having 22 points of armor, and having 24 points of armor. So if someone adds bracers to a set of armor that's currently giving 22 points, then the bracers are REALLY valuable. That makes it very hard to balance the individual pieces of armor. It also means pieces of armor that cover a "new" body location (like the tail) are more valuable than ones that cover a common location (like the chest) - because they can more easily be stacked with other pieces. It can all be managed using the current system. It's just complicated.

Another concern might be allowing special protections for armor. So for example, if you have padded armor, we might want to allow two armor rolls against bashing attacks, if you have enchanged armor you might be immune to fire attacks, etc. - that's a lot harder with individual pieces. If I have padded gloves, does that give me two armor rolls? Or one armor roll with all my armor, then a second roll with just my gloves (and is that second roll even meaningful? - see the example of the bracers) - if I can get enchanted armor that protects me from fire, what happens if I get enchanted gloves to protect from fire, enchanted boots to protect from water, enchanted breastplate to protect from earth, and enchanted helmet to protect from air. Then I'm immune to all elements, and everyone will want to make a similar set for complete protection, rather than having to choose which element they want to be protected from. Or would we make each of those items only give 25% protection (and then we get a lot of complexity in having to calculate how to handle partial protection...)

I didn't want to get into those sort of game-system discussions yet, though, because I want to avoid pushing for one option or the other. I mostly want to see how players roleplay with the armor, then I can decide if the coding benefits are worth consolidating into suits of armor, or if the RP disadvantage is big enough that it's worth dealing with the complexity of individual pieces.

My gut feeling is that the coding will be easier with sets of armor, rather than individual pieces. And with easier coding, that means we can give more options to the players. But that's just initial impressions - if players want individual pieces, I'll try to make it work.

It sounds like I'm trying to argue people into wanting a single item for their armor (and I am presenting the pros for that option) but I do honestly just want to see what the options are so that you guys can get what you want

Originally Posted by Harabec

Having individual pieces is best for both customization and armor values. Sure having a full set of armor is gonna be better for combat but at the same time if the individual pieces are for look only and give no bonus who is going to wear them without the full armor set? Never know when someone might jump you in an alleyway.

I imagine people would wear individual pieces for the same reason that they wear different clothes - to help describe the appearance of their character. Just like wearing a cape or a hood or a ruffled shirt doesn't give different bonuses.

Being protected when someone jumps you in an alleyway is a valid argument, but really doesn't matter to this discussion, does it? Because if your PC is wearing armor, they will either wear all the individual pieces, to be protected, or they will wear their single "armor set" item. Either way they'll be protected. The only difference is the number of individual items in the game.

Originally Posted by Harabec

Individual is more flavorful for the game, gives specific bonuses (or detriments) for each piece worn

Yes

Originally Posted by Harabec

and gives the smiths MUCH more to do as far as working their goods.

Not really. The smith has to craft each individual item, but other than needing to type the command more times, does this make much difference?
If we consolidate the armor, they'll craft a set of armor, and then customize it. So they'll have a very similar role to what they're currently doing.

The difference for the smiths will be that they can't give partial sets of armor out anymore.

Originally Posted by Harabec

If you wanted, you could find a way to code a simple look into showing: Gus is wearing various pieces of armor

I've looked into ways of doing that. But it becomes messy. What we have to do is create one item that can "hold" the other items. And then it's really nasty for targetting. You'd have to target "point at gus's armor's greaves" rather than "point at gus's greaves"
The "single piece of armor" lets us "point at gus's greaves" even while the look says "Gus is wearing rusted tin armor"

If I could do it like you described above, I'd have done that long ago. Unfortunately :/

Originally Posted by Harabec

That would work if say he were wearing three or more pieces and they combined in a look but an examine would show all of it or if someone were to type: look at Gus' armor; it would then list the types of armor that are on his person (of course, if the armor is covered it wouldn't show in the look.)

With single-piece-for-the-armor we can do this. If you look at the armor it can describe the individual pieces. Unfortunately we can't do this with individual pieces of armor.

Originally Posted by Harabec

Complicated coding and likely not necessary but the individual pieces is the best way to go IMO. I assume armor works as clothing still in that certain pieces will completely cover other items.

Yes, it works like clothing and can cover other pieces.

[Harabec]

I was about to write out another long reply but I had a brain fart while staring at the screne.. ummm. Oh, at that point people will ALWAYS be wearing armor I think and yes the armor skills makes it so you do not take penalties but if you're wearing a full set of armor, regardless of your armor skill there should always be penalties to such too for your speed or agility.

Now I'm all for the ease of the coding but I wouldn't want the fact that a character like gus who only wears bracers to not get even a slight bonus for that. He would make sure to use those bracers to his fullest advantage without encumbering himself with heavy armors. I'm fine if its just for RP at that point in the end but it is still a type of armor.

[Kheldon]

Well, I know that it's a pain to see the spam of all the different armor pieces. I have one tank that wears a lot and trying to make sure he had it all was a pain, and looking at myself now is about the same.

I also have another character that just wears a few pieces, for a little bit of protection but he doesn't have a full suit as he's not well trained at armor and his stuff is mostly based on speed.

I actually like it this way. The tank is heavy up on armor and had to spend a lot of points to learn how to use it without a penalty. The other one wears just things like greeves/bracers to protect his limbs a bit and he needed very minimal training to get used to those little add ons.

To say you need a full suit of armor or you get no bonus takes some of the freedom out of the game, which by definition means I don't really like it. Saying you can "still wear pieces for the look but they don't do anything" just seems kind of lame to me. Turning armor pieces into clothing unless you get the full set, meh.

I'm not sure exactly how (or if) armor factors in at the moment, just got back from some time away and when I left the combat system wasn't working properly. If that's still the case, I'd say leave the look and mechanics of armor the way they are. The old addage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Comes to mind, then you good folks doing the coding (and mad props to you all, because you wok hard behind the scenes so we can enjoy it) can move on to fixing glitches and things that aren't working instead of retooling something that does.

As I said, just my 2 cents, I see both sides but am firmly on my own and am sure there will be others just as much on the other side.

[SHAzrael]

Originally Posted by Kheldon

The tank is heavy up on armor and had to spend a lot of points to learn how to use it without a penalty. The other one wears just things like greeves/bracers to protect his limbs a bit and he needed very minimal training to get used to those little add ons.

To say you need a full suit of armor or you get no bonus takes some of the freedom out of the game, which by definition means I don't really like it.

Apologies if I've been unclear.
You'll still be able to wear "light armor" or "heavy armor" - so your tank can still wear a lot of armor, and your light speed guy can still wear just little armor.

The difference is, instead of the tank wearing 10 pieces of armor, and the light guy wearing 2, the tank would wear one piece described as "a suit of heavy armor" (or something similar), while the light guy would wear one piece described as "some light padded armor."

I still entirely want to give the freedom for different PCs to wear heavier or lighter (or no) armor.

Originally Posted by Kheldon

Turning armor pieces into clothing unless you get the full set, meh.

It wouldn't work where you get the "full set" of individual pieces and suddenly you get armor. It would work where you get the "armor" item, such as an item described as "some light padded armor" which gives you the benefits in combat - and then if you wanted you could *also* wear "a silver helmet" or something, which would work like clothing, and probably not give general benefits.

Originally Posted by Kheldon

I'm not sure exactly how (or if) armor factors in at the moment, just got back from some time away and when I left the combat system wasn't working properly.

It doesn't work at the moment. I'm trying to figure out how best to make it work.

Originally Posted by Kheldon

If that's still the case, I'd say leave the look and mechanics of armor the way they are. The old addage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Comes to mind, then you good folks doing the coding (and mad props to you all, because you wok hard behind the scenes so we can enjoy it) can move on to fixing glitches and things that aren't working instead of retooling something that does.

Mmm, except it is broken. So this is a glitch that needs to be fixed.

I'm probably going to go with the "single armor object" solution, despite people being against it, just because it's by far the easiest option to code, and much easier to keep balanced. But I still want to know how people feel, so we can hopefully make sure everyone gets to "keep what they liked" about the old armor setup.

If everyone screams, and tells me no, then I'll still try and make it work with individual armor pieces. It will just mean I need to spend more time on it, so it'll take longer before we can get it working again.

I might actually try putting a few "single armor object" items into the game, so players can try both options, does that seem like a worthwhile thing to do?