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  #1  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:21 AM
enger enger is offline
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Tier

Can someone in detail explain the definition of Tier 1 - 5, mid Tier and top Tier. I didn't play TEC when all this was introduced and the search-function of this forum doesn't give a good response either.

Thank you in advance.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:00 AM
PBandJ PBandJ is offline
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Ah! I was going to make a thread about this but you beat me to it.

I do not know what the formula was originally to calculate tiers, but it is no longer supported by GMs and according to many people it does not accurately reflect fighting ability. The ones in use currently for the Tournament are highly subjective.

I am very interested in developing some kind of useful tiering system so we can make better matches and have a better-defined tournament structure.

As far as I can tell, fighting ability reflects the following factors:
1) Combat Ranks
2) Stats
3) Fighting experience (your own knowledge of combat mechanics)

I don't want to include weapon or armor type, because those don't really factor into how good a fighter you are. However a good knowledge of armor can really help you.

So, first of all: are those the 3 things we should be evaluating to make matches? And second of all... how can we? Because as far as I can tell, comparing total combat ranks alone is unsatisfactory.
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  #3  
Old 05-11-2012, 05:54 AM
Dink Dink is offline
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The only way to get a good handle on the tier system with respect to how well each player handles their character is to keep a running tally of their wins and losses versus opponents of varying skill levels.

Here's how I imagine it:

First, actual tiers are subjective and don't matter. They're just a number anyway, keep them as such. Each character gets a new stat, combat tier, or combat effectiveness, whatever you care to call it. This number is reached by total combat ranks divided by 100. As you progress, this number will of course go up. Stats can be worked into this as well. Each stat a character has at phenominal adds 5 pts and each inhuman stat adds 10 points. The beginning forumula for the new stat is combat ranks/100 + sum of stat modifiers. Don't get hung up on this part in the beginning. This is your new combat effectiveness stat.

When you fight a PC your combat effectiveness (CE) stat is compared to theirs. If the character with the higher CE wins, they will see no change to thier CE stat, or perhaps a very small increase. The loser who was also outmatched can get a small gain, scaling upward depending on the amount of difference between the two CE scores at the beginning of the fight. This is a mechanics was of taking into account you learned something from fighting someone much better. Two evenly matched PC's with regards to CE can see larger increases and losses in their CE number depending on the outcome of their match. Within a few weeks CE scores should be settled in and anyone hosting fights should be able to match fights to a decent degree just by pairing CE scores.

Tweakers: The system can be played, of course. A low level character getting their uber buddy to throw a fight gets them a big CE boost. It's pointless though. All they'd be doing is getting themselves ranked at an artificially high level. Fights paired by level would see them get crushed. The reverse would also happen. People getting their CE score lowered by throwing fights would cause a disparity among low/mid level tiers. Their ranks/100 will eventually push them up into higher tiers no matter how hard they try to fight it, and if someone really wants to be king of the mid levels, who cares anyway?

Ranked fights: Not all PC fights are as clear cut. PVP often ends in someone running off, friends jumping in, etc. These obviously can't be used for scoring purposes. That's where the ludus pits come in. For a fight to have any effect on the CE stat, the fight would have to take place in one of the ludus pits or on the colosseum floor. This makes the stables even more important and influential in the gameworld, especially with the combat buffs.

Good, bad, impossible? Don't know, I'm not a coder. Just food for thought.

Last edited by Dink; 05-11-2012 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Neglected stats
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  #4  
Old 05-11-2012, 08:14 AM
UzakGM UzakGM is offline
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The following is my own personal opinion and does not reflect that of the entire staff. There was a man in the Colosseum that used to assess you and placed you within certain tiered brackets. It was a pretty decent indicative of how good you were as a fighter and made it easier for the Editor Ludorum to set up matches. It was purely an OOC convenience that many players used and brought IG to some ridiculous degrees. Instead of role-playing things out and figuring for yourself if you could fight someone, players completely relied on the assessment mechanics. I personally always preferred the gladiatorial fighting system without a NPC to assess you. There is better role-playing involved and -characters- have to make decisions. There will be some uneven fights here and there, but a competent Editor Ludorum will, with relative ease, figure out where someone stands after one or two fights. If he doesn't have the combat knowledge to do so, he can always seek out help from another character that could play the role of assessing characters. Tiers didn't exist back in the days and it didn't make the games any less fair or boring, if anything, the fights were just as exciting. I'm not opposed to players creating their own tiers so long as there are no OOC requirements (for example, the people hosting the games asking for people's TCR, stats or other OOC things to determine tiers) although I think it best to have everyone in one class and you set up matches depending on combat abilities. A gladiator is there to put on a good show, whether he's godly or just decent, so long as the showing is good is what really matters in my opinion - not the numbers that are involved.

Simply put, I personally prefer having players in control of everything rather than having mechanics restrain the role-play and action. Participating in fights is, after all, not all about winning or losing, it's about the role-play and the excitement that the fights will bring to those who compete, but also to those who watch.
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  #5  
Old 05-11-2012, 08:31 AM
Rythgen Rythgen is offline
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Total ranks really is a very inaccurate representation of how good a character is (ignoring player skill) due to how different moves work and then how they work at different tiers.

For example, a clubber with 100/100 in Upswing, Leg Strike, Knock Aside, Hop Bash and Sap with token ranks in defense will pretty much destroy any low tier fighter with equal ranks that has them equally spread out among all their attacks.

Take that same clubber and put them in mid-high tier with a defense to match but their effectiveness has plummeted because their bread and butter moves don't work nearly as well against anyone with a solid defense.

Give me two characters with identical TCR, I'll take the one that cherry picked their skillset's good moves over the 'well-rounded' one any day.

Stats can have a static value for tier purposes simply because they're pretty much set as to their effect on combat.

Player knowledge can't be quantified by any in-game mechanical measurement so there's really no point in trying to include it in any tiering system that isn't 100% player-run.

I think the current tiering system is fine, honestly. Let the players feel each other out and rank them accordingly; this allows for much more organic tiers as well as surprise upsets when someone is estimated incorrectly. Additionally, it allows for some ebb and flow of tier 'requirements' depending on which characters are active during that period of time.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:12 AM
HotMoltenLava HotMoltenLava is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UzakGM View Post
It was purely an OOC convenience that many players used and brought IG to some ridiculous degrees. Instead of role-playing things out and figuring for yourself if you could fight someone, players completely relied on the assessment mechanics.
I never understood how the gms had a view of Sabinus as being OOC. I saw him as a sort of doctore who due to his skills and observations could deduce at what tier a fighter was valued at. It was by no means completely on the mark but it at least allowed it so that fighters of similar skill could be matched up to some estimated degree.

Now, right before he was removed I heard a gm complain about how the word tiers was ooc, and I argued that it was not, over and over again. Maybe it's because of how I see the word and it's use in relation to the game.

TIERS I saw was a physical thing. Think the tier stands as a wedding cake, a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another, as of seats in an amphitheater and placing the fighters on it according to their variable skills. What is OOC about that? I just don't get how it was ever considered too ooc, it has been a way of defining the ability of fighters for ... who knows how long? I could PHYSICALLY see these fighters being sorted this way.

Fights will be held and as the opponents would advance to the next set of games they've advanced on the tiers of that competition. Hell Tiers are written out in the basement of the brawling pit in the steps.

Who's going up against who it's all the same thing.

So I say bring back Sabinus, he hardly made predictions of ability that close, to make it unfeasible for using with the mere purpose matching up competitors. But he did give a reasonably close answer as to how skilled a combatant was. He was able to view with his skilled eye, what we as players could not.

It's hard for us to really see how strong a person is... because even the most MUSCULAR character can be weak as hell, since physical descriptors has nothing to do with the statistical reality of the character. Or how fast a characters is, or how dexterous. These are all things that we can't really determine just by watching a character fight. Or at least I can't. Speed maybe. Simply because they are able to attack faster.

So the argument of OOC and why it was removed never worked for me, as apparently it can be explained within good reason for why and how they exist in a realistic way. Better than many things that exist ingame.
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  #7  
Old 05-11-2012, 10:19 AM
PBandJ PBandJ is offline
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Okay, I think I'm approaching some kind of decision, from an Editor Ludorum standpoint at least.

For a while I have been (not always, but sometimes) writing down the results of matches. Pretty simple - who fought, who won, and some notes on showmanship and ability. (Notes like: "Amazing crits," "Played the 'villain' role nicely," "Turtled the whole time, poor showman).

I think what I would like to do is basically keep doing this, but bring on some official observers to help. Leo will hire a couple of people (not for a lot of money, 'cuz he's poor) to write down the date of the fight and winners/losers and comments for each one-on-one fight that takes place in a ludus or at an official Arena event.

Leo will publish these results on parchments every month or two, so people can see what's what. (So you better not put on a lousy fight, or you'll be shamed forever!) (And I'll probably keep a publicly-accessible Google Doc or something so you can view it all at once).

And we'll use them to set up matches. "Well, in your most recent match you almost lost to Leo, which is about as hard as an Island gull, so you're low-mid-tier, roughly."

Basically it's what the Clerk at the Colosseum does, but more comprehensive and informative.

If you are interested in being an observer, find Leo in-game. We'll talk about a (paltry) salary.
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I used to be a gladiator like you. Then I took a round-strike to the neck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracked.com, on "Pottermore"
But if there is real, player vs player dueling enabled, a whole realm of emergent-gameplay opportunities open up that can be used to wreck everything for everyone. We already know how this will play out - wrecking a community isn't a new hobby, not since the Vikings invented player-killing in the eighth century
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  #8  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:57 PM
NewPatriot NewPatriot is offline
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Tier was based on your total ranks in all the skillsets you used in the arena. Sabinus would give you your tier for a lot of different per mutations (i.e. low tier three with brawling and shields, high tier four with staves brawling and CMs).

Some moves, like sweeps, knockdowns, charges, hard to dodge moves, multi-hitters, etc. were weighted higher. So, your tier would be higher if you had more ranks in them, even if your total ranks weren't as high as someone elses. I don't know if it weights your total ranks in each skill (i.e. being 200/200 in one move isn't as good as being 100 and 50 in 6 subs). It rated Godo as mid or high tier 5 last time it worked on him.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:51 PM
Max Powers Max Powers is offline
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I just liked Sabinus as he gave me something relatively tangible to judge the progression of my characters with. There really was no point in removing him if the code is already there.

If the current EL doesn't want to use him, don't. The word 'tiers' is already used and is deeply ingrained in the game already, I don't see it as being OOC or a need to remove the nomenclature.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:56 PM
PBandJ PBandJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Powers View Post
I just liked Sabinus as he gave me something relatively tangible to judge the progression of my characters with. There really was no point in removing him if the code is already there.

If the current EL doesn't want to use him, don't. The word 'tiers' is already used and is deeply ingrained in the game already, I don't see it as being OOC or a need to remove the nomenclature.
Just for the record, I was in favor of bringing Sabinus back. I'm just thinking of the future assuming it doesn't come back, looking to a system that will help us out and maybe be a little more RP-encouraging.
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I used to be a gladiator like you. Then I took a round-strike to the neck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracked.com, on "Pottermore"
But if there is real, player vs player dueling enabled, a whole realm of emergent-gameplay opportunities open up that can be used to wreck everything for everyone. We already know how this will play out - wrecking a community isn't a new hobby, not since the Vikings invented player-killing in the eighth century
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  #11  
Old 05-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Elsana Elsana is offline
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I had never heard of Sabinus before reading this thread, and I must say that I would fight much more often if he existed again. What's really not fun is being matched up against someone you can't hit, plain and simple. There are enough combat characters that, unless I keep a meticulous list like Leo has suggested, I can't remember how well I should fare against them.. not to mention the people who save up thousands of SPs and then spend them just before a fight.

As it is, there are a select few characters I spar, simply because I already know we're evenly or closely matched. If Sabinus existed again, I would be much more inclined to branch out. I think any OoC shenanigans could be eliminated with tweaks to the system, no?
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:35 PM
Armataan Armataan is offline
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With respect to Uzak, who is the big fish of the conversation;

Sabinus was great for the game's gladiatorial pvp system. Gladiatorial PVP was far more active when Sabinus was active. He gave a tangible goalpost that was good for 'competitive' characters to aim at reaching, and it allowed for IC conversation of mechanics instead of OOC.

I really wish he'd come back. I also really wish that his mechanics would be used when thief-assess is used.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:37 PM
mr_unlucky mr_unlucky is offline
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Yeah, newbies get wrecked cuz nobody knows how good they are.

Plus tiers show you that with equal skill, who you *should* be able to have a close fight with, and if not you can figure out why.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:44 PM
Armataan Armataan is offline
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Not even 'equal skill'.

Culexus was a high tier 1 borderline tier 2 with 1 rank in basics, and 4 rank 1 attacks.

Ducos was a mid tier 1 when he hit 400 total ranks.

It actually accounted for stats in a pretty accurate way too.
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